News: Israel v. Lebanon conflict

[Yukimura]

So your saying he should just abbandon his country because they are killing a lot of people in an attempt to make their own citizens safer. In Israel everyone fights (not sure about the women...) which seems like a good idea being that there's so much hate ready to come down on them at any given time. That you would even suggest these things to a member of the Israeli military is quite amazing to me. Civillians are the ones who question their governments not soldiers, and while someone is a soldier they have a duty to follow orders and defend their country. All I hope is that Death Boo Z stays safe.

As I see it. Israel is doing a lot (relatively) of collateral damage and this is very unfortunate for the Lebanese, but from Israels perspective doing nothing will likely lead to more attacks on Israel. Any reasonable leader would attempt to take the fight to the enemy rather than accept more deaths among his/her own people. If it comes down to Lebanese civillians and Israeli civillians and someone is going to die, [This Is Where An Obvious, 'No one has to die' Counter-Argument Goes!!!!!!!] the Isrealis will protect their own. Sure it's not 'right' by most standards to kill in the hope that others won't be killed if you do, but if nations only did what was right by some arbitrary, and regardless of how hard you try 'right' will always be arbitrary, definition then anyone who wasn't willing to follow the 'right' path could run all over them.

And as to the UN, is the UN going to protect Israel's citizen's? I doubt it, and from Israel's behavior they probably doubt it as well. The UN lacks the punch that goes along with it's supposed authority, it can give and take favours but it doesn't have the third leg of authority, the ability to inflict direct damage. The reason countries like the US and Israel ignore it so much is because it most closely represents the type of idealistic 'right thing only' organization of any world body. The UN will always seek to avoid causing suffering of any kind, even when there is no other option to induce complience. It is interesting how well the UN and countries match with parents and children.

Some parents are like the UN and refuse to inflict harm to discipline their children Instead they negotiate with the children, taking away privilages or offering incentives in the hope of bartering for a desired behavior from them. I have seen many good people who grew up never having a hand raised to them in punishment, and they are respectful and obedient. I have also seen children who were beaten for anything and everything who turned out to be terrible, disrespectful, and rebelious wastes of material. In addition to the ability of the one weilding the authority, the children themselves have something to do with how they turn out, just as the people/leaders of a country have something to do with how that country will respond to pressures.

Some countries, just like some children, can be brought into line with nothing but sanctions or incentives. Others will do whatever suits them no matter what you offer them or threaten them with. A notable thing is that the countries that come to mind as rebellious are generally fighting amoungst each other. The US and, to a lesser extent, Israel, share their disrespect for the 'rules' with countries like Iran, the old Iraq, and North Korea. The most likely reason being that these countries have strong ideological goals on an international stage and will to see those goals fulfilled to the best of their abilities. NOTE: When I reference a county I'm talking about it's government, not nessecarily it's populace.

And what is a 'just' war? When is it just to drop a 500lb bomb on something that's not yours. Even I don't think it's 'just' to attack someone else, even if you've been attacked. However I think you damn well better attack anyone who attacks you, and teach them a lesson lest they attempt to hurt you again. Justice and Righteousness have no place on a battlefield. When no one wants anyone dead anymore (or isn't willing to follow through on their desire), then people should start talking about justice, until then it's about saving your own ass any way you can.

[DB_Hunter]

So your saying he should just abbandon his country because they are killing a lot of people in an attempt to make their own citizens safer. In Israel everyone fights (not sure about the women...) which seems like a good idea being that there's so much hate ready to come down on them at any given time. That you would even suggest these things to a member of the Israeli military is quite amazing to me. Civillians are the ones who question their governments not soldiers, and while someone is a soldier they have a duty to follow orders and defend their country. All I hope is that Death Boo Z stays safe.

I'm sorry but I don't subscribe the 'I'm a soldier so I don't have a brain or will of my own to make decisions' theory.

As I see it. Israel is doing a lot (relatively) of collateral damage and this is very unfortunate for the Lebanese, but from Israels perspective doing nothing will likely lead to more attacks on Israel. Any reasonable leader would attempt to take the fight to the enemy rather than accept more deaths among his/her own people. If it comes down to Lebanese civillians and Israeli civillians and someone is going to die, [This Is Where An Obvious, 'No one has to die' Counter-Argument Goes!!!!!!!] the Isrealis will protect their own. Sure it's not 'right' by most standards to kill in the hope that others won't be killed if you do, but if nations only did what was right by some arbitrary, and regardless of how hard you try 'right' will always be arbitrary, definition then anyone who wasn't willing to follow the 'right' path could run all over them.

I'm sorry if you are saying that you lack a moral compass and the ability to define what is right or not then you will never be able to solve any conflict. As for what Israel should do, this is a question that has its roots in history rather than this conflict. When did the first conflict start?

And as to the UN, is the UN going to protect Israel's citizen's? I doubt it, and from Israel's behavior they probably doubt it as well. The UN lacks the punch that goes along with it's supposed authority, it can give and take favours but it doesn't have the third leg of authority, the ability to inflict direct damage. The reason countries like the US and Israel ignore it so much is because it most closely represents the type of idealistic 'right thing only' organization of any world body. The UN will always seek to avoid causing suffering of any kind, even when there is no other option to induce complience. It is interesting how well the UN and countries match with parents and children.

You see when I said that Israel ignores the UN, I was trying to render the UN meaningless. Anyone with two braincells to rub together can see that the UN is a useless organisation which is inherently flawed in its setup, implementation and influence. A so called 'Security Council' that consists of 5 permanant members with diverging interests is supposed to look aftet the well being of the world? Gimme a break, the only people who adhere to the UN rules and resolutions are third world countries who are/feel threatned by the more powerful nations in the world who also happen to sit on the Security Council. I just found it so cynical that an attempt was made to use such a useless, ineffective organisation to justify the current conflict.

And what is a 'just' war? When is it just to drop a 500lb bomb on something that's not yours. Even I don't think it's 'just' to attack someone else, even if you've been attacked. However I think you damn well better attack anyone who attacks you, and teach them a lesson lest they attempt to hurt you again. Justice and Righteousness have no place on a battlefield. When no one wants anyone dead anymore (or isn't willing to follow through on their desire), then people should start talking about justice, until then it's about saving your own ass any way you can.

A just war is defined by your ideological beliefs. Not exactly the same as arbritrary, as justice is defined by what your nation (or even the individual) believes in.

But by your thinking would it then be safe to say you have no problem with "suicide" bombers?

These guys should certainly have no problem. They are the epitomy of what I have said (which I think is what you are trying to say also with regards to what is a just war). However that does not stop others of different ideological persuasions to call such statements unjust.

[Edort4]

The funny thing is that they are attacking and destroying a country wich has no power over hezbollah and that tried to get ride of them and even asked for international help.

The 2 countries that are behind hezbollah and the current "war" are syria and iran neither of them are being targeted nor acused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon

People should learn a bit about others to try to know who they are (empathy is a need for any human being) and not talk like manuals of the perfect soldier without brains or to get their mouths full with words such as freedom, democracy and justice. Something they claim to defend by violating all of them.

I just pity them and I suffer for all those lebannon people that die for a war that has almost nothing to do with them, leaving their country in ruins and with decades of reconstruction and economic recession.
One of the most prosperous countrys in the area was too much of a threat uh?

I wonder if IRA bombs the US or israel will they bomb and invade belfast or dublin?

[samsonlonghair]

It just never ends. You hurt me, so I'll hurt you. Then you hurt me back, so I hurt you back.

DeathBooZ, although I disagree with your government I hope you remain safe. You're stuck in the middle of something overwhich you have no control, and I'm sure that even those who disagree with this war can empathize with you.

DB Hunter, I can understand your passion; I felt (and still feel) much the same way about the Iraq war. On matters like this I remember what the Dali Lama said on his last visit to the US. Anyone can criticize or hate a government; anyone can talk about all the things that are wrong, but few can suggest a solution.

The Iraq war was a simpler debate; either you honestly believed that Iraq was a threat or you didn't (I didn't). This is different; Hezbollah definitely is a threat to Israel, and they definitely have a stronghold on Lebanon. From Israel's point of view, what can be done? Attacking Lebanon is probably the wrong thing to do, but doing nothing is definitely the wrong thing to do. I wish I had an answer.