One Piece Episode 410

[poopdeville]

Luffy got the idea from Soru, but I assure you, Soru does not work by forcibly pumping blood through your circulatory system at a faster rate.

Well, I'm sure CP9 is in excellent cardiovascular health. They don't need to "forcibly" pump blood faster, because their hearts do it naturally. This is a bit of a tangent, but we are mostly in agreement.

Are you suggesting that Zoro should be able to cut logia users?

Not at the moment. I don't think he's strong/fast enough now. But I am sure his sword will be able to "cut nothing, and cut everything" by the end of the show.

On the other hand, the fact that Luffy could dodge the Amazon's arrows makes me think a generic Amazon is too weak to hurt a Logia user too (for the same reason). The way I see it, those arrows would have to be flying fast enough to do damage to the Logia user before he can change into his element. (Or surprise him, like how Luffy hit Ace and Smoker in Arabasta.)

[The Chancellor]

Well, I'm sure CP9 is in excellent cardiovascular health

I loled man. Nice.

Not at the moment. I don't think he's strong/fast enough now. But I am sure his sword will be able to "cut nothing, and cut everything" by the end of the show.

Then you're implying that Mihawk can easily take down an admiral with little work. I think that's complete bullshit. When are you guys going to get it through your heads that other than a few respective elements (water and Crocodile, Luffy and Enel) logias are near invincible. And I swear if someone busts out Rayliegh on me then I'm going off. He was 100 times stronger than all of the super novas combined and had years of experience. He's probably encountered almost every logia user already to begin with. He's been to the end of the world and back. So he's an exception to the rule.

[Splash!]

He was 100 times stronger than all of the super novas combined and had years of experience. He's probably encountered almost every logia user already to begin with. He's been to the end of the world and back. So he's an exception to the rule.

By the 'end of the show', Zoro would be the same. It's not so ridiculous to believe that at that point, he would have gained the power to cut a logia user.

@poopdeville: I don't see the problem with Haki being everything that you say it is and at the same time, be the basis for super powerful techiques in One Piece, just like chi was in DragonBallZ.

Clearly, the ability to be able to cut through steel is not an everyday skill. Being able to accomplish it is indeed a super power born through the manifestation of Zoro's haki (I do agree with you that Zoro is imbuing his sword with haki). I also agree with you that haki is probably something all individuals possess to a certain degree, though some have a much stronger 'ambition' than others. How is it any different from Chi (thinking of the Spirit Bomb)?

Like you said, Haki in itself is not a 'skill', just like Chi wasn't either. Chi was used as the foundation for the abilities in DragonBallZ but was not an ability in itself.

[Lucifus]

Just watch the show or pick up the manga. Most of this speculating sounds childish. =P

A few of the ideas ya guys came up with definitely seem to hit home though.

[poopdeville]

I don't see the problem with Haki being everything that you say it is and at the same time, be the basis for super powerful techiques in One Piece, just like chi was in DragonBallZ.

My interpretation turns "cause and effect" around for haki. Most people interpret haki as making one strong. During this part of the manga, readers hoped that Luffy and the others would "learn haki" so that they would survive in the New World, as if haki was the basis for techniques.

I see it the other way around. You only have a strong presence (haki) if you are already strong. Haki is a sign of strength, not a source of it. A barking puppy might be determined to keep a burglar out of your house, but it isn't strong enough. A sleeping pitbull isn't going to be much help either. A barking pit bull will stop everyone in their tracks (or make them run the other way). That is "strong haki", in real life.

(On the other hand, determination is necessary to TRAIN to be strong. And the stronger that determination is, the stronger you should get, because you "should" be training harder)

Clearly, the ability to be able to cut through steel is not an everyday skill. Being able to accomplish it is indeed a super power born through the manifestation of Zoro's haki (I do agree with you that Zoro is imbuing his sword with haki). I also agree with you that haki is probably something all individuals possess to a certain degree, though some have a much stronger 'ambition' than others. How is it any different from Chi (thinking of the Spirit Bomb)?

I don't think haki is a physical substance, like chakra or chi. I don't think Zoro is literally putting a magical energy into his sword, like how Sasuke molds chakra to make his electric sword. I think he is just concentrating, and drawing out his "true strength". I don't mind calling this "imbuing", especially since Zoro described it as "transferring his thoughts through his sword." Both "imbuing" and "transferring" sound like metaphorical descriptions of the same idea. Especially since "to imbue" primarily means "to inspire". I do not mind the idea of Zoro "inspiring his sword with his determination".

[Assertn]

I'm not arguing that you don't need strength to have haki. I do, however, believe that the inner strength or "determination" is what outwardly manifests into some sort of technique, similarly to chakra and chi.

Yes, Luffy and Zoro have expressed determination to the capacity that they have been able to immobolize, freak out, or knock out opponents with it alone (Zoro scaring the bounty hunters on shabondy, Luffy knocking out Duval's bull, etc), the same way Rayleigh and Shanks have made people faint by their determination. However, this has a very different effect when its concentrated into some sort of attack, such as the haki arrows or Rayleigh's sword.

Haki is an aura. It can flow freely from someone, or it can be concentrated. Just as someone mentioned earlier, the starfish didn't faint from Rayleigh's haki blast. This is because its something Rayleigh can project outward in a controlled manner. How could this work under your definition?

[The Chancellor]

effect when its concentrated into some sort of attack, such as the haki arrows or Rayleigh's sword.

You're still assuming that it's how he cut Kizaru.

[chambers]

I think thats the kicker really, we all recognize now that haki is what the dark king used in the auction house, and also what shanks used on whitebeards crew. But we DONT KNOW that what raleigh used in order to combat Kizaru...

#one thing i do think however is that haki is an ability, an ability to focus ones will. Luffy may have the presence, determination and strength to knock people down with a look, but unless somone shows him how to tap into the techniques it will never reach its full potential.

Now it can be argued that "oh but how can ambition be a basis for techniques" well if you take into account that this is a work of fiction and i cant even think of a long running shonen anime that DIDNT have some kind of secret none real powersource that characters could tap into .... and they ALL created preassure (and its been described that way many times) on the relative opponent. From Naruto and bleach to Hajime no ippo. When you focus on your ambitions you become more determined and can achive things seemingly out of reach.

[Splash!]

My interpretation turns "cause and effect" around for haki. Most people interpret haki as making one strong. During this part of the manga, readers hoped that Luffy and the others would "learn haki" so that they would survive in the New World, as if haki was the basis for techniques.

I see it the other way around. You only have a strong presence (haki) if you are already strong. Haki is a sign of strength, not a source of it.

I won't pretend to know much about the meaning of the word in Japanese but if you put it that way, 'ambition' sounds like a really bad way to translate it. Afterall, ambition is more of a driving factor towards becoming stronger and establishing yourself. It is not something that comes after the fact.

So you are saying Haki is more along the lines of a domineering or commanding presence?

Haki is an aura. It can flow freely from someone, or it can be concentrated. Just as someone mentioned earlier, the starfish didn't faint from Rayleigh's haki blast. This is because its something Rayleigh can project outward in a controlled manner. How could this work under your definition?

Zoro's teacher comes to mind. The power to able to cut through anything and nothing.
I guess your commanding personality wont scare the crap out of someone if you hold no sense of hostility or anger towards them? (or don't look down on them).

If that is the case, then it makes sense that it wouldn't cause your friends to faint. It would be pretty stupid if all the small fry in Shanks' or Whitebeard's fainted in the presence of their captain's haki. There would be no point in having weak crew members on your ship if everytime the captain got serious, the weak ones fainted.