Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation

[MFauli]

The anime said he "assaulted" her, not sure what else you want from them...

You heard what they said in Japanese, and agreed that it could have multiple meanings regardless, not sure what your point with this is.

One thing is complete censorship, another is deciding how to translate something that can have multiple meanings.

I think you're not recalling the anime scene correctly.

Also, we didn't get Lilia's POV in the anime, only Rudeus'.

wtf Munsu :/

We went though all of this at length. As I said: The anime doesnt use the term "forced". What it uses it somewhat ambiguous. The LN, as we know, uses explicitely "forced" to describe what happens. And now we found out the English translation of the LN ignored that and is, instead, like the anime, downplaying what happened. This, as I said, raises the question if the different anime script might be connected to the false translation of the LN.

Ofc, changes are often made in anime adaptations without it being wrong, see Shield Hero. But it is a curious coincicdence at least.

[Munsu]

wtf Munsu :/

We went though all of this at length. As I said: The anime doesnt use the term "forced". What it uses it somewhat ambiguous. The LN, as we know, uses explicitely "forced" to describe what happens. And now we found out the English translation of the LN ignored that and is, instead, like the anime, downplaying what happened. This, as I said, raises the question if the different anime script might be connected to the false translation of the LN.

Ofc, changes are often made in anime adaptations without it being wrong, see Shield Hero. But it is a curious coincicdence at least.

Again, when the article mentions "forced" it's in a POV that wasn't featured in the anime. You can't do a 1 to 1 comparison.

The portion that appears in the anime in Rudeus' POV "nekomi wo osou" is the same as it appears in the WN.

[MFauli]

Again, when the article mentions "forced" it's in a POV that wasn't featured in the anime. You can't do a 1 to 1 comparison.

The portion that appears in the anime in Rudeus' POV "nekomi wo osou" is the same as it appears in the WN.

That's not the phrase that I'm talking about when I say "forced", though. But I'm too lazy to look for it, it's somewhere in a posting of mine here. "Nekomi o osou" is ambiguous. "Forced" is not. And now that situation. Pls, I don't want to repeat the whole debate in this thread, let's just wait what happens :>

[DarthEnderX]

We went though all of this at length.

We did, and it was determined "scattering virtue" was an idiom to imply force, but you refused to accept that because it didn't literally say "forced".

And now you're arguing again because you're hoping the translation error means you weren't wrong, even though we weren't using that translation.

[Buffalobiian]

I won't butt in this whole debate, but I would like to clarify that the phrase "nekomi wo osou" fits the definition of rape in western societies. The literal meaning is to attack someone while they are asleep, but the whole Japanese phrase is generally understood as sexually assaulting a sleeping person.

To be fair, that exact phrase is sometimes used for comedic effect in a lot of ecchi anime, but the whole paragraph in this episode clearly does not imply that. Right after that phrase, "純潔を散らし" (junketsu wo chirashi) was used, which roughly means taking someone's virginity in a forceful/dishonorable way. The phrase literally translates to "scattering purity", so it does not imply a calm nor romantic encounter. But most of all, it definitely wasn't socially acceptable in their world because the statement after that said Paul fled his dojo due to what he did. The structure of the paragraph very clearly indicates that his actions forced him to escape.

Shinta's already said everything here. It's post #141 if you care to revisit.

MFauli disagrees with 襲う to refer to sexual assault. It means surprise attack. If you surprise attack someone in their sleep and scatter their virginity, that's sexual assault - even if the anime didn't use the specific phrase 無理矢理.

[Munsu]

Shinta's already said everything here. It's post #141 if you care to revisit.

MFauli disagrees with 襲う to refer to sexual assault. It means surprise attack. If you surprise attack someone in their sleep and scatter their virginity, that's sexual assault - even if the anime didn't use the specific phrase 無理矢理.

From what I can tell, since he doesn't want to tell us what scene he's talking about, is that MFauli is under the misconception that the anime itself censored the content when that scene is pretty much (in Japanese) word for word what's found in the WN, yet for some strange reason he thinks the (edited English LN version) is closer to the "true" version. The problem is that the true version (Japanese WN/LN) IS in the anime. That the anime uses "assault" to describe the scene, plus the evidence of the LN admitting they did a mistake on how they translated that portion, already disproves MFauli's current stance that the anime is more closely resembling the censored LN (at least in this case), which couldn't be further from the truth.

He keeps referencing the "forced" word, which is mentioned in the article, but that translation is specific to another scene that wasn't animated, but other than confirming what we already know, it doesn't bring nothing new... I think this is the crux of his confusion. The article is describing different scenes from the ones discussed in this thread.

I have no problem with MFauli considering the possibility that the Japanese phrases had multiple possibilities, heck I thought the same, particularly since I saw different takes in the English LN (which were supported by multiple scenes). But now we know we were fooled, and I think by now it's quite clear what is meant by those phrases even if we were open to the idea of mistranslation back then in the anime.

[MFauli]

But now we know we were fooled, and I think by now it's quite clear what is meant by those phrases even if we were open to the idea of mistranslation back then in the anime.

... that's what I was saying :/
Munsu, I'm not saying Paul didn't rape Lilia at this point.

[Kraco]

Lilia must be one of the weirdest characters in the story. She didn't initially like Rudeus because she viewed him as creepy, being kind of sexually inclined from the birth, yet Lilia herself is a person who got raped, then followed the rapist, later to become the rapist and his wife's maid, fully on purpose, and finally seduced him to give birth to his child. But I guess it's like they say: It takes a weirdo to recognise a weirdo.

[Ryllharu]

Lilia must be one of the weirdest characters in the story. She didn't initially like Rudeus because she viewed him as creepy, being kind of sexually inclined from the birth, yet Lilia herself is a person who got raped, then followed the rapist, later to become the rapist and his wife's maid, fully on purpose, and finally seduced him to give birth to his child. But I guess it's like they say: It takes a weirdo to recognise a weirdo.

Sad as it is, that's actually a fairly accurate representation of what happens to a lot of sexually abused women. They go back.

Not knowing her family situation, but knowing the generalized fantasy medieval era, I think we can probably assume Lilia didn't have a lot of options, and tagging along with Paul and Zenith after they retired as their servant was one of the better ones.

[Kraco]

Sad as it is, that's actually a fairly accurate representation of what happens to a lot of sexually abused women. They go back.

Not knowing her family situation, but knowing the generalized fantasy medieval era, I think we can probably assume Lilia didn't have a lot of options, and tagging along with Paul and Zenith after they retired as their servant was one of the better ones.

She wasn't with a child, is healthy and quite good looking, and a hard worker, so it shouldn't have been a problem for her to find a husband. Certainly not a nobleman or anything, but an ordinary, decent man of some profession. Now, however, she ended up as a single mother with a child. She knows the father and the father has recognised the child, so it's not a total disaster, but it's still a child out of wedlock. But then again, it's a fantasy world, not our world.

[Munsu]

... that's what I was saying :/
Munsu, I'm not saying Paul didn't rape Lilia at this point.

What I'm saying is not what you think Paul did or not. What I'm clarifying is that the anime is not censoring content. What is mentioned in the article is not the same scene we discussed here, so you can't draw comparisons on how the translations were handled based on that. That's the gist of what I wanted to get across, not go on another round on how to interpret what was said.

Lilia must be one of the weirdest characters in the story. She didn't initially like Rudeus because she viewed him as creepy, being kind of sexually inclined from the birth, yet Lilia herself is a person who got raped, then followed the rapist, later to become the rapist and his wife's maid, fully on purpose, and finally seduced him to give birth to his child. But I guess it's like they say: It takes a weirdo to recognise a weirdo.

She is indeed, but maybe not necessarily out of character for that type of "era"? Like, what if she liked Paul all along, what if she doesn't feel she was raped and the appreciation that she was raped comes from a modern look at what happened and not from the victim?

Anime aside on how things will develop in the future, I'm curious on how the LN will now translate some portions of the story. Can't wait for the new versions to come out for the LN.

[Buffalobiian]

Looking forward, things are actually even more weird for her.

She can't exactly go around fucking Paul every day, but she's got a kid and that would raise questions for any new partners.

I don't know how "She's mine from a previous one-night-stand" would fly in medieval times.. and also ties in whether or not her kid knows Paul is her dad. This is getting messy but we will probably never have to go down this hole.

[Ryllharu]

Mushoku Tensei - 10



-------------------

Pros: Eris having the time of her life, while also being wistful and showing that she does care about her grandfather and Ghislaine (who she is especially worried about). The new demon lands city is beautiful, vibrant, and they're really showing us the diversity and promise in the world building.

Cons: The Ruijerd storyline. Zzzzzzzz.

Bad stuff first then. The Ruijerd storyline is suddenly and abruptly completely boring as shit. I don't care how you want to count Mushoku Tensei as the "godfather of isekai" the whole, 'You mustn't kill! Even the bad guys!?' plot thread is so old and trite at this point it's not even interesting.

Mushoku Tensei started in 2012/2014, and this trope was old in anime THEN. It was old in 1992 for Terminator 2. It was old in Dragon Ball. I'm honestly not even interested in seeing what (if anything), the series will attempt to do as a different spin. I feel like I've seen every possible iteration of the trope already, and it isn't even an interesting or compelling one to begin with.

Onto the good stuff. The backrounds are gorgeous. Eris doing a death dance fight, and so causally confident in her abilities that she doesn't even pay attention to the others is fascinating. Sounds like we're first-hand witnesses to the next great Sword King. There's an effortlessness in her swordplay, like she's not holding back against Rudeus in practice, or if she idly worries about hurting Ghislaine. Not that she probably could. But her abilities seem to have directly ramped up

Her confidence is contrasted nicely with her continued fury, frustration, and that little hint of homesickness. She's loving every minute of this adventure, except at nights. Her loose cannon behavior because she's can't understand the language might drive her to study from Rudy even more, which could be good.

Eris facing down the furious Ruijerd was the sole interesting spot in his boring-ass half of the episode. She's not afraid of anything, but she does learn. Beating up the other adventuring party in the inn lobby was something she took to heart. Her temper is hiding her mild homesickness, and she used a lot of what Rudeus has been poking at her over the years back on Ruijerd.

The city is also beautiful. I love the wall designs, the weird castle in the center, the building stacked up in every corner out of the weird bowl the city is in (very much like Deca-dense's was or something out of a Ghibli film). There's a depth and variety of the demon-folk too. From the asshole Bojack guy, the ultra chill innkeeper, the timid lizard and bug lady, and the dorky other adventurer party.

[MFauli]

Bad stuff first then. The Ruijerd storyline is suddenly and abruptly completely boring as shit. I don't care how you want to count Mushoku Tensei as the "godfather of isekai" the whole, 'You mustn't kill! Even the bad guys!?' plot thread is so old and trite at this point it's not even interesting.

LOL, I had the exact opposite reaction: WHY won't neither Rudy nor Eris tell the guy that there are different levels of crimes/evil?! I mean, maybe he'd ignore that, but at least TRY and tell him that. Someone slaps a child? Shove him away and shout at him. Stealing a pet? Get him to the local enforcement or make some deal. Committing murder? Depening on circumstances, now you can think about killing the perpetrator. Easy peasy.

This is now such forced drama. "I MUST KILL ALL EVIL! ONLY BLACK AND WHITE!" and Rudy just takes it without trying the above. Ugh.

Hope that Sperd-arc is not too long. Although we're at the final episode anyway.#

Edit: Also, I had hoped that the kick Rudy received actually damaged him more severely and he'd only survive thanks to quickly healing himself. That could have been some nice reality check that this isn't a game, but a real world.

[DarthEnderX]

LOL, I had the exact opposite reaction: WHY won't neither Rudy nor Eris tell the guy that there are different levels of crimes/evil?! I mean, maybe he'd ignore that, but at least TRY and tell him that. Someone slaps a child? Shove him away and shout at him. Stealing a pet? Get him to the local enforcement or make some deal. Committing murder? Depening on circumstances, now you can think about killing the perpetrator. Easy peasy.

This is now such forced drama. "I MUST KILL ALL EVIL! ONLY BLACK AND WHITE!" and Rudy just takes it without trying the above. Ugh.

Agreed.

Edit: Also, I had hoped that the kick Rudy received actually damaged him more severely and he'd only survive thanks to quickly healing himself. That could have been some nice reality check that this isn't a game, but a real world.

Yeah but then Ruijerd WOULD have been justified in killing the guy.

Guy steals pets, not kills kids.

That being said, Rudeus as well needs to accept it's a new world and new rules.

Jesus Christ, what is with this "nobody should try and be better than the standard of behavior of where they are?" shit.

I swear, if it were up to you we'd all still be cavemen...

[Kraco]

Jesus Christ, what is with this "nobody should try and be better than the standard of behavior of where they are?" shit.

I swear, if it were up to you we'd all still be cavemen...

High morals won't do you much good if you are lying dead in a ditch. If your encounters have no qualms about killing you, what choice do you have but act in a similar way in a critical situation? The only other choice is to die. Maybe much, much later when Rudeus is an OP character, should he ever be, he can afford to ignore lowlifes trying to kill him or those in his company. But that day is still far off.

[DarthEnderX]

High morals won't do you much good if you are lying dead in a ditch.

Then how did high morals ever come into existence in the first place if trying to act better always meant death?

If your encounters have no qualms about killing you, what choice do you have but act in a similar way in a critical situation? The only other choice is to die.

No, there's actually a LOT of other choices. Like subduing people, or running away, or bargaining.

They might not all work, but to assume everything is kill or be killed is a false dichotomy.

[KrayZ33]

High morals won't do you much good if you are lying dead in a ditch. If your encounters have no qualms about killing you, what choice do you have but act in a similar way in a critical situation? The only other choice is to die. Maybe much, much later when Rudeus is an OP character, should he ever be, he can afford to ignore lowlifes trying to kill him or those in his company. But that day is still far off.

The thing is, this wasn't a critical situation at all.
Even Rudeus was super calm after he got kicked, because he knew there would be no follow up and him getting hit was him being careless.
The situation escalated with them killing their leader.

What?!


And just for the record: these 'lowlives' never tried to kill them. *They* sneak-attacked them. Considering how shocked they reacted when their leader was killed, I doubt that they're murderer.

No need to make it sound like they stabbed them in the back either, lol.

They apprehended them, that's all.

[KrayZ33]

Great ep.

I for one like the Ruijerd storyline and how they try to increase his reputation.
Not sure what the deal about it is. He was clearly in the wrong killing that guy and his reasoning is flawed. I think it gave us great insight on why he is called dead's end, his moral compass is way too black and white and this, overall, is probably more for Rudeus own mental health than anything else.
It's almost as if he sees children as innocent beings and the rest is always up for judgement.
I could totally imagine Rudeus fearing what will happen to him if Ruijerd starts to believe Rudeus did something evil (which is basically what he said through the flower anyway).

Eris really begins to truely shine and bloom during adventures. That's totally her thing and quite obvious her childhood dream. She even has the power to back it up. That's some superhuman strength right there.
Almost annoyingly so, she can't be held in check, but that kinda fits her character and her age and upbringing.
I also loved how Eris tried to stop Ruijerd, yet it kinda didn't affect her as much.
I wonder if she actually sees these people as people or just random creatures.


I really enjoyed this episode.

[Ryllharu]

I wonder if she actually sees these people as people or just random creatures.

The city gate kind of proved her demeanor towards them. She loves it. Ghislaine is her favorite person aside from her grandfather, and she seems to like all shades of beast people, just like her father and grandfather, though not in that way.

She called them weird, in an excited way. The ones she attacked, she couldn't understand, and they touched her, resulting in her cloak button snapping, which set her off. She's beat up Rudy in the past for less.